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Noojee Ride Report 11th of December 2010.

It was my last led ride for the year and most likely the last I will run here until around the same times next year.
Fantastic turn out of 21 riders so close to Christmas and the weather turned on a treat after so much rain and humidity.

Adam kindly did a fuel dump and pick up for us and with the usual rider briefing we headed off around 9am.
The track had been graded and was different whereby I stacked the bike with a resulting scrape and bruise.

Ride went well no issues and headed into Fumina where Jarrod retired with a rough running machine.
Al shared with us some nice Fumina tracks and we crossed three rivers with minor issues.

Headed back to the cars arriving there at 4pm with 107K's traveled.
Thanks to Trevor and Fred for their tailman duties.
A few of us had some light refreshments at the Toolshed afterwards to top off the day.
Merry Christmas to ALL and a safe and happy New Year 2011.

Ride List:
Brad McDiarmid WR250 Ride Leader
Fred Schenko Sherco 300 PM Tailman Thanks
Bob Duckett Berg 450
Chinkkrit Khantawong CRF450
Dexter Kiernan WR450
Adam Fisher KTM450 Fuel drop/pick up Thanks
Gary Clarke CR250R
Paul Van Leeuwen WR250
Al Mason WR250
Nathan Stott TE310
Trevor Healey WR450 AM Tailman Thanks
Keith Bugeja KTM525
Colin Pearce KTM250
Wayne Coulson DRZ400
Mick Stevens KTM525
Jarrod Keith TE410 Retired sick bike
Ken Robinson KTM450
Peter Dunlop WR450
Paul Bryce KTM250 Gave me a lift cheers mate
Dennis Dorman WR450
Scott Dorman KTM300

Great ride Brad, if i can work out how i'll post up some footage.

thanks for the ride brad i had fun while it lasted.
i made it back fine and made it back in time to ring huskey and let them know that they are gonna cop a bike up their ass.nathan you have to put that footage of the ride leader eating dirt within the first five mins of the ride. gold star for brad hows the hip bud.

Ideal weather, good tracks, and a free-flowing ride.

Great fun - Thanks for organising it Brad.

Peter D

Jarrod I have your empty (Nathan) jerry can.

Great ride Brad, hope i didnt take over to much? Had a good day out there and enjoyed the easier pace and difficulty. Some of the blokes i watched from the last ride did very well managing the terrain and obsticles. And so few issuses with the rivers that were still high and flowing was good sign. (that water was cold after 10mins) Till the next one Dr Brad (which will be sooner than you reckon!) Al

NP Al, my pace is less than your good self and much appreciated you showing us some of your tracks which I
plan to include a few in the future.
They were a good bunch yesterday and all do L2 easily.
Some interesting stories over Toolshed beers including some shared near miss "moments" and where people felt they were from a ride level which varied quite a bit.
 
BTW how did people rate the level of the ride was it:
L1
L2
Clubman or Expert
I am very interested in each persons opinion??

As far as rides go I am going to passenger for awhile and step back up for the Mt Buller ride weekend.

Hi Brad,
Thanks for putting on a nother great ride,
also thank's to Al and Nathan for there help in the river crossing.
Due to the drier conditionds I would class the ride as a level 2, except your off about 10 minutes in to the ride was of clubman standard, hope the hip dosen't hurt for too long !
Cheers,
Gary.

Thanks Brad for the ride, and Al for helping me out at the river crossing + your expert riding tips! I would call it L1 on open tracks and L2 on single stuff as my red beast doesn't like to do precision control "having hard time stay on it as it is, you want it to turn!!!". 

I've only done 5 AMTRA rides so far, but I would say that you had it correctly pegged as a level 2 ride - Apart from the tight slippery stuff, there were a lot of rutted downhill sections that I feel would have caused some grief to riders with less experience.

Thanks Brad and Al for a great ride, I think it was definitely a level 2 ride, the pace was consistent with very few stops, so for me it not just about technique it about stamina of keeping going.

Brad what about a couple more rides in the New Year you know you want to!!

Colin P

Guys, thanks to everyone for the feedback, its very much appreciated around the ride level and quality of the ride tracks.
The ride amounts to a mapping exercise if there are no riders as thats what makes a good ride, its the people who come and the time spent in their company.
Oh yeah and good weather is an added bonus; a very merry Christmas to ALL.

Thanks again for the ride Brad. It was good to get back into it after 2 years. My ex Wiggy orange machine felt good with standard springs back in and a good guess at the clickers needing no changes, so far. Lots of new faces around for me, good to see the club growing. A question for fellow 2006 450 EXC owners - when landing off jumps the engine hesitated a little when the throttle was opened. I'm going to pull the carb off for a clean, anything common to these machines to look for while I'm in there? Happy Xmas Ya-all.

Ken, There is a slightly bigger accelerator pump bowl you can buy to help with this problem . Will 0414354317

Hi Brad,
Thanks for another great ride. I would say it would be rated as a level two because of the river crossings added. The weather was perfect which made the ride flow easily. Merry Christmas to everyone and I look forward to riding in the new year.
Adam  :D

Can also happen due to large fuel tanks and the surge/vacum that is created post the jump. Had it on my WR re-jetting got rid of it.

That was indeed a terrific ride Brad. Thanks again and thanks also to Al for the extra and interesting tracks. AS to ride level, I have done easier clubman rides and harder level 2 rides in my 15 years riding with AMTRA. The main difference between level 2 and clubman is the pace, frequency of re-groups and degree of assistance required. The pace on the day was fairly high, we had very few re-groups and assistance was provided only a few times - lifting bikes over a slippery log (which mainly helped to keep the ride flowing)and in the river crossings. It seems to me that everyone handled the ride very well and had fun. I think Al had the assesment about right at Level 2+ due to the river cossings in particular. In the wet it would probably have been Clubman to expert in places.

My approach to ride level is to go by who is leading the ride as different ride leaders have different views of ride level and also widely differing riding experience,skill and desire for self harm. Whatever ride level you choose to call your rides Brad, they are just what I like - some challenges without being crazy but lots of fun riding interesting and differing terrain. Anyway, it seems that the level of your rides like last Saturday are what most club members are looking for, so keep them coming.

It is interesting that the most challenging hill which is the last up-hill on the way back to the cars has been bulldozed so now it has become easy but a hell of a lot more fun.

Dennis Dorman

A great comment I remember from the day was a rider said that if he had not come he would not improve as the ride pushed him a little in different areas and in others he was comfortable. He said that to ride at the same level or without a challenge was boring and not helping his skills which he believes have a way to go.
That said having been on your ride 3 times now Al, I always enjoyed the day it is more technical than super fast which is my preference.
Soon I hope to be acquire a European bike which will allow me to mix it up better with the 2T's and 450's where they are strong but keep the 250 agility.
The ride feedback is as expected, varied and all in all consistent. It's interesting that the L1's love most of the tracks we went on and how with variation that the L2 ride can be created different in 3 ways as intended. Faster, more difficult and less regroups around 7 in total with one every 15 KM's on average. Which makes it a 30K round trip to run and investigate if there are issues directly after any regroup, this can become a fuel issue if more than one happens in a day. Ride planning is a big part as you know of setting a safe and successful club ride notably around recovery points and re-routes if required.

Dr Brad

brad i reckon your rides are spot on.as everyone has said each person view on levels differ.al id like to try your fumina ride if its ok but its hard to commit to a clubman ride. how do know if you can cut it on the harder rides is there a way of working out what level you are like a test or something.ive seen people say they're clubman level and struggle on very easy rides.brad i look forward to doing your rides next year i enjoy them and i dont mind helping out if u need a hand.

for what its worth, i havent been on one of your rides since b4 you broke your leg Brad but thought the ones i did were great....

Hard to commit to Al's clubman ride cause you don't know if you can cut it!!
Didn't you say in a previous post you were doing Wildwood Rock EXTREME!!! enduro next year??
If you can finish Wildwood then you can do Al's ride with your eyes closed.
As far as Brads ride is concerned, in my opinion it was a L2 ride with no challenges. As Al said Brads hard tracks were Al's tracks to catch your breath, clubman is a word thrown around very loosely in this club, and there isn't that many clubman riders in AMTRA. It's not about speed, it's about the ability to deal with whatever terrain is thrown at you WITHOUT assistance.

In a previous post you said you were entering Wildwood Rock EXTREME!! enduro!!!!
If your doing wildwood then you could do Al's ride with tour eyes closed.
As far as Brads ride goes, in my opinion it was a cruisy L2 ride with no challenges, and I used it to work on certain skills

Level 2 or 2+ what's the difference ...  One thing I have learned in the last 6 months from AMTRA , repeatedly riding the stuff you can ride easliy doesnt teach you anything its the stuff that puts a knot in your stomach that makes you better ( not to be confused with faster ) making it over a big fat log feels as good as holding it pinned on a flowy section.

I am sure that the clubmand riders will not leave me behind next year when i try and step it up a little ( not to be confused with trying to go faster ) at worst I reckon I will learn what I need to work on skills wise.  ;D

Guys some great discussion around the ride level and I appreciate the feedback it helps keep the rides in perspective and at the right level. Especially like the comments around practicing and trying to extend experience. Speaking to guys on the rides they usually try to improve on a skill area per ride e.g. rear brake, hand and finger positions, standing up etc... this may mean riding slower to work on the selected area. Also trying something you reckon is above your capability, with encouragement and assistance succeeding is a great feeling and lifts skills but importantly grows confidence and knowledge/experience.

In my humble opinion Clubman riding usually means:
- You and your machine are in sync in that you know how it performs, how to manage and control it at all times including when tired or under duress.
- Assistance is light on as both rider and machine are expected to cope with most situations. That said if the bike falls on you, injured or stuck the tailman will assist.
- The distance traveled may be longer in a day 200K's + or - 50K's.
-The pace may be up as the tracks are more open therefore its somewhat safer to go faster.
-The tracks may be more technical requiring better skills to negotiate ruts, logs, rivers, rocks and steep terrain.
- Owing to all of the above rider fitness and bike stamina are required. The bike will need more attention to detail WRT setup (rideability) and maintenance (reliability).
- The best way to move to Clubman is to progress firstly on tough short rides, ride a wide variety of terrain and conditions, get fit, ride more often (weekly or fortnightly), ride longer distances in a day and set up the bile to cope with all of these rides and terrain for maximum reliability.
- If you are on a ride riding at 100% all day it is most likely to in in tears. Most folk ride at a safer level and have the odd adrenaline rush (100%) when they are ready and the trails suit them. This may not mean going fast it might mean doing something that as mentioned "knots your stomach"!
- In summary Clubman is about consistency of rider and machine over a wide variety of terrain and in ALL riding conditions. I think Expert is a faster sustained pace and more extreme terrain, big jumps, fast flat cornering etc.. the stuff Pro's do.

Ok here we go again, time after time this same topic comes up and people in our club do not seam to under stand our clubs riders grading system, so I have attached it to this post for your reference.
What Nathan has described as a clubman rider is actaully an expert rider by our clubs grading system, and it is time for some of our so called clubman riders, to harden up and start calling themselfs what they really are, and that is  exsperienced riders, and proudly so.
We have great riders at all levels in this club, but we have some awesome riders who persist on only calling themselfs Clubman riders, when there is no doubt in my mind, that they are infact Exsperienced riders, and infact some of the rides which they also call clubman rides, are also Exsperienced rides.
Brads description is good but again a clubman ride is not about distance or speed, just ask Dave or Rowen Smith or any of the riders on the last HTFU ride.
I agree in certain circumstances , there needs to be an average speed and distance to travel, otherwise the ride cannot be compleated in the set time frame, but in my opinion, what you need to be a clubman, is an understanding of how your bike works, so you can apply the techniques required to handle most terains, and obstacles, and repairs to your bike, but most of all, when the going gets tough, you need the ability to dig deep for pure guts and determination, to get up,or down, in or out of something, or over or under when required.
Guys lets not try and rewrite our grading system once more, lets just start using what we already have, properly.
Human nature is that we get better at things without realizing how much better we have got, so for some reason when things get easier for us we forget how hard they once were,  Will
     Ride standards/

AMTRA rides are graded at 4 different levels.
The following is a description of each of the levels.
Level 1 For riders with little or no trail riding skills.
Level 2 For riders with skill levels above those of a beginner and usually easy rides with lots of
assistance given.
Clubman For riders with average skills and the ability to cope with most terrain and bike repairs
(Punctures, broken levers etc). Assistance given if required.
Experienced For riders with the ability to cope with all terrain with little or no help unless asked for.
Experienced grade rides usually cover long distances.

P.S. Guys please do not rely on the tailman to help a falling rider, if you see someone under a bike or in danger, you stop to help, you do not leave them there for someone else to help them, cause someone else may not come along quick enough, you find somewhere safe to stop and park your bike, and you go to there aid ASAP. And dont forget to laugh at them if it is not to serious.
 

Awesome!!! All of a sudden I'm an expert rider!!

Well said Will, I used to be a expert rider, now I just like to get out on the trails & in the bush, I don't care if it's a L1 or L2 or L3

In my opinion some blokes take this grading a bit to far, after all AMTRA is a trail bike riding club, if some blokes have out grown the club, maybe they should also join a racing club & do some enduros, when I was a young bloke, I wasn't interested in joining AMTRA because I wanted to race.
Over the years I've heard good things about AMTRA, yes it's been going for many years, so why try & chance it.

3 cheers for AMTRA.

Clearly the issue with this discussion are people's interpretation hence the variation in consensus!
An interesting question is how many experts in the club have or have had Motorcycling Australia License for racing?

Reading through all this, I get the impression that people are un-comfortable with calling themselves an 'expert' rider.  Simple solution, use the term 'experienced'!

Many of our riders are experienced, and many of our rides are suited for experienced riders.  The problem with advertising a ride as experienced, is that people get spooked, and decide that the ride is above their competence level. If you are un-sure about the requirements of a particular ride, contact the ride-leader and discuss it with him.  If he thinks you're up to it and takes you along, he will see that you'll get through.  If he suggests that you shouldn't takle that ride, accept his guidance and choose another ride.

What everyone must remember is that irrespective of the classification of a ride, assistance will always be given when it's asked for.

"Your the Man"

Maybe its as simple as we are all men and have male pride
( dam pain in the arse ) and as proud men we dont like to look silly / slow / incompetant / uncapable or what ever tag you wanna put on it ..... All I know is I have never been left behind , made feel slow or like I dont belong on a ride by any AMTRA member or ride leader quite the opposite really always been incouraged to try new things , have a crack and challenge myslef with common sense of course.

Any yes surge you are correct TALKING to the ride leader is the KEY forget what the calendar post says , talking to the guy that is leading the ride got wrid of most of my stomach gremlins and i have enjoyed the rides much more since.

I have missed far to may good rides in the past becasue I was scared of looking like a goose but not any more   ;D

That's the good thing about racing, nobody wants to be last, so it makes ya improve real quick ;D

Well said Serge, I have to agree with you, as I am FAR from an expert rider, and even experienced is stretching it a little bit as I have only been riding for 5 years.
You are right about the being spooked bit and I have never seen an experienced ride on the calendar.
I put on a ride out at Murrindindi that is a clubman ride and the last time I put it on the calendar I didn't get one call from anyone who was interested in coming along so the ride didn't happen.
The reason I list it as clubman is that it is a physically demanding ride, I can deal with most terrain myself, I don't like to stop much and as I'm fairly fit my pace doesn't change through out the day and as it's my ride that's how I want to run it
If I wanted a stop start ride with lots of assistance then I'd list it as L2 but then there is no way you'd be able to complete the whole 100k loop as it's pretty full on. People need to push themselves more as it's the only way you will improve your skills, there has been plenty of times on rides when I've been the slowest or struggling with the ride, but all that does is make you a better rider. When you learn what your limits are and what you need to work on, you improve. Doing the same easy rides every month isn't going to improve your skills on the bike at all, so get out of your comfort zone and try something new and talking to the ride leader is a great place to start, as long as you are honest about your abilites on the bike.
Oh and Zeb, pretty sure i'll still leave you behind next year!!....hahahaha joking mate, you have improved dramatically from the first time i rode with you.  ;)

  One day Nathan one day   ;) Well maybe it will take quite a few days but you will get a good wiff of motul two stroke oil eventually  ;D You should take everyone to that nasty litttle single at poweltown that we all got stuck on talk about character building and finding your limits man my arms hurt for a week  :o

what do you mean we ALL got stuck on it?? i dont recall being stuck!!  ;D

[quote  it's my ride that's how I want to run it

[/quote]

Not having a go at ya mate, but that is the reason why you didn't get a call, have you ever thought that a lot of ppl join the club just to go out for a ride & meet new ppl, & don't want to put their neck on the line, they have families to look after a have to be back to work on Monday morning, that's why they join the club because it's a trail bike riding club,& not a racing club, I may be wrong in my thinking but that's what I reckon.

So I talk crap do I, I think you've forgotten how it was when you first started,with all this talk going on here, how a ride has to be a big challenge & very technical to improve there riding, puts pressure on riders, so I say again for the riders that just want to go for a nice trail ride & get pushed into these rides they do put there necks on the line.

AMTRA has NO expert grading. That was a term we stopped using a long time ago as Enduros were also graded Expert and AMTRA rides have little to do with how fast you ride. An "EXPERIENCED" rider will be capable of a reasonable pace and be capable of riding nearly any challenge out there with no help and also be capable of long distances if the ride is so planned. I believe many AMTRA riders should be rating themselves as "Experienced" but seem scared to do so.

If you want to be an EXPERT then ride enduros and see how you go. Ride gradings are listed on the web and newsletter. They are easy to understand.

Ian

Sorry Seano. Was trying to make a joke and lighten then mood. My Bad! Problem fixed! Al
Ps. Seano, yor welcome on my ride when ever your ready, dont ever remember preasuring anyone into one?
Ps 2. I havnt forgotten were i started and im always one of the first off the bike to render assistance and help a fellow rider! As was done for me! I have also never had anyone break a bone on any of my so called Experienced rides.

Not having a go at ya mate, but that is the reason why you didn't get a call, have you ever thought that a lot of ppl join the club just to go out for a ride & meet new ppl, & don't want to put their neck on the line, they have families to look after a have to be back to work on Monday morning, that's why they join the club because it's a trail bike riding club,& not a racing club, I may be wrong in my thinking but that's what I reckon.
[/quote]


Frankie believe it or not, there are people in this club that like challenging rides, not every one wants to stop for story time at the end of every track, and not everyone wants to go for a 3 hr ride in the morning and go for lunch and talk about how good they are.
If thats the way the club is heading, where it's just an easy social ride is all the club offers then there will be no experienced riders to pass on their skills to the beginners, then the club will be the loser.
Never once have i said anything about my rides being a race or that your neck will be put on the line, but if there's no room or need for clubman/challenging rides on the calendar then i will not put any more on.

Frankie believe it or not, there are people in this club that like challenging rides, not every one wants to stop for story time at the end of every track, and not everyone wants to go for a 3 hr ride in the morning and go for lunch and talk about how good they are.
If thats the way the club is heading, where it's just an easy social ride is all the club offers then there will be no experienced riders to pass on their skills to the beginners, then the club will be the loser.
Never once have i said anything about my rides being a race or that your neck will be put on the line, but if there's no room or need for clubman/challenging rides on the calendar then i will not put any more on.
[/quote]Nathan, do not be discouraged, people do still want challenging rides, the HTFU rides are testiment to that, its just that sometimes the moons do not align for people , and even though you may not like rides that are to sociable, there are a lot of guys who do want to be sociable on the rides, so it depends if you are running a ride the way you want it, you may not be getting people along because thats not the way they want it, but if you are running a ride the way people want it then you will get some along, Keep up the good work Nath, there is still room for challenges in our calender. Will

Hey AL, you are missing the point I'm making.
Looks like AMTRA is just like DBW you can't have an opinion here either, I better keep my mouth shut from now on.

Whoooo....easy fellas!

Let's just take a breath here.

I don't know when this thread got ugly, but I don't like the direction it's taking.

How about we put a hold on this discussion, and take it up at a General Meeting where it can be talked about face-to-face?  I'd hate to see anyone get upset over this, especially when it can be a simple miss-understanding over something that someone has said (written).

I don't want to see anyone post a comment that they may regret later!

I haven't been a member for very long, I've been on lots of rides & had a ball, I have put my hand up to help with the HCR, right now I'm loosing interest in the club.

How true Serge that what is put in words never equals a conversation on the phone or even better on that is face to face. Many an email I have sent at work as come back misunderstood which as never my intention. In learning the lesson the hard way I have come to believe that if your words are not very precise in that they can stand the test of time for interpretation NO MATTER how they are read then guess what pick up the phone!

no wuckas Al, all good

It is dissapointing to think people get upset about a few words written on here.

Ride leaders can organise what ever type of ride they like from easy cruisey social rides to very demanding rides. That is the good thing about the club, it is about having fun, no matter what type of ride suites your own personal ideas of the type of ride you enjoy. Riders have the choice to go on the ride or not. If someone takes the time to organise a ride for others then no-one should complain. If it was too hard for you then at least you probably learnt something from the ride even though you did not think so at the time, besides, how do you improve your skills if you do not challenge yourself.
If someone puts on an experiences level ride and you thought it should be level 2 or vice versa does it really matter, there are more important things in life to worry about.

I am old enough to  not care about what people say about me, my riding ability or most other things. If you are enjoying what you are doing then who cares what others think. may be others should also try thinking like that, it makes life much less stressful.

People join AMTRA to meet other riders and have fun on rides, that is all that is important.

I am enjoying being a club member at present, there has been no conflict from members for some time and we have a large number of members putting on a big variety of rides. AMTRA is running very well with the mix of personalities we have. Just remember to not get bugged by some possibly mis-understood words written on the web.

May be I have rambled on a bit but guess what, I dont care.

Have a good Christmas break if you are lucky enough to have some time off and remember the first club meeting for  2011 is Australia day so even if you go riding that day we expect to see you at the club meeting!

Ian

That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make.
That's what the club is all about isn't
That's how the club started, ppl wanting to go out for a good trail ride with ya mates.